74. A Fresh Look at Fertility: Conversation with Dr Erica Bove – Part 2

 ​On today’s episode of Cycle Wisdom, Dr. Monica Minjeur and fertility coach and specialist Dr. Erica Bove explore holistic approaches to optimizing natural fertility. From fertility myth-busting, to exploring intentionality without intensity, to discussing the mind-body connection and how coaching can benefit your mindset, you don’t want to miss this discussion! Join this inspiring conversation, where science, awareness, and practical tips come together. Don’t miss the second half of this two-part series—your roadmap to understanding and restoring natural fertility starts here!

 
Erica Bove, MD, is a double board certified OB-GYN and Reproductive Endocrinologist (REI) physician at the University of Vermont, She is also the CEO and founder of Love and Science: Thriving Through Infertility.  She has a keen interest in marrying an evidence-based approach with intuitive knowing in the context of a trusting relationship. She empowers women physicians to build their families with confidence, self compassion and community. Her mission is to heal and support the healers and to create a legacy she is proud of.  

 Website: loveandsciencefertility.com  

Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/erica-bove-0701a0173

IG: https://www.instagram.com/loveandsciencefertility/

FB: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61553692167183

Podcast: loveandsciencefertility.com/podcast

Transcript

Monica: 0:02

Welcome back to Cycle Wisdom, where we empower women to restore natural menstrual cycles to improve health and promote fertility. I'm your host, Dr. Monica Minjeur, and I'm so glad you are listening today as we continue with part two of our conversation with one of my favorite colleagues and friends, Dr. Erica Bove. On today's episode, we continue our talk discussing fertility myths, Mind body connection, and fertility coaching to improve your mindset when trying to conceive or to accomplish anything you may be working through. If you haven't done so already, make sure to tune in to episode 73 from last week for the first part of our discussion about restoring natural menstrual cycles to improve health and promote fertility.

Dr Erica Bove: 0:48

So, you know, the fertile window, I was hoping that we could talk about that too. So what do you tell your people about the fertile window and when they're most fertile in their cycles?

Monica: 0:57

So one of the really cool things about the chart Neo app that we utilize is that the app itself will pick out when that fertile window is, which is really nice. So you don't have to think too much about it, but typically what we're looking for, especially as far as cervical mucus, if you are going to the bathroom and checking for cervical mucus, you just do a wipe across the perineum and you say, okay, does this feel like a slip and slide? Or does it feel like a dry desert? If it feels like a slip and slide, That can be the start of a fertile window. after you've wiped, you're going to take a look at that toilet tissue and say, Do I observe any mucus on it? And that's where you're going to look at the different characteristics of it. So if it stretches more than two centimeters or an inch,, if it's clear and if it's slippery, that's going to be fertile type mucus. And so that begins the beginning of your fertile window, and then it continues through until the last day that you see that that's going to be your last day of mucus observations. But actually that fertile window continues for up to three, sometimes three and a half days after that last. Time that you've seen fertile mucus. And the reason that's important to know is that sperm can actually survive for up to five days if there's fertile mucus present. And so even if you say, okay, well, I'm not seeing any fertile mucus, you may still have some fertile mucus that's in the cervical canal that's in the vaginal area that just isn't being noticed, but sperm can still get to where it needs to go. The other is that if you have had intercourse prior to the exact day that you've ovulated That sperm can hang out for up to five days while it's waiting for that egg to be released. And so the timing of that becomes important, especially when you're looking to try and achieve a pregnancy is that we generally recommend trying for intercourse every other day from the first time that you've seen fertile mucus until at least three days after your last observation of it. The other thing that I would add in though, just as a side note is that I oftentimes see couples that are trying to get pregnant. That's the only time that they have intercourse. And when I see that, then we start to have the questions and we say, Okay, is intercourse a job? Or is this something that is lighthearted and fun and brings you together? Because I believe it's really important that when you are trying to achieve a pregnancy, that intercourse is not happening just during that fertile time. We need to utilize other times. You need to come together at other times where you go, Okay, is This is light and enjoyable and fun so that we take some of that intensity off of that fertile window because then there's kind of this performance anxiety like, Oh, it has to happen here. But really just making sure that if you're trying to get pregnant, that we are utilizing that fertile window, but also please use other times as well. A

Dr Erica Bove: 3:21

hundred percent. I could not agree with that more. I mean, I think sexual health is so important and if it's just limited to the pure purpose of procreation, then it loses so much of its other wonderfulness and It can start to drive a wedge in relationships. And so let's, create healthy relationships or maintain them and also just keep it fun. Like, you know, maybe do something a little different, maybe, have a date night. Like it doesn't have to just be like, check, check, check, check, check, check off the list. That's fantastic. I get a lot of questions about do positions matter or all the sperm seem to be falling out. And I just sort of, you know, reset expectations, like. Physicians has never been a study that showed that positions, you know, mattered every now and again, somebody will have a situation. Maybe they've had trauma or something where it really is hard to have penetrative intercourse. And there are physical therapists and sex therapists who can work and help people in that, very sensitive situation. So there's that and also, are all the sperm falling out? Well, yeah. No, most of them. Yes, but that's how the body is designed. And so like that slip inside the cervical mucus, I was always taught under the microscope is like a series of swimming lanes. And so the sperm that can get into the swimming lanes are the ones that get up into the uterine cavity and the fallopian tubes actually pretty efficiently anywhere between two and 15 minutes from the time of that ejaculation. So yeah. You know, it is really interesting that the sperms that are supposed to get in, get in, and then the body then sort of has this block and most of the other sperm do not, I mean, there are studies that show out of the millions and millions and millions of sperm that are ejaculated that only a few hundred get inside, we have treatments in our office where we can sort of bypass the cervix and get those millions in, but If you're really trying to optimize natural fertility, just know that it is normal for most of the sperm to come out. People really stress about that. And so I love to just sort of reset that expectation that that is actually very normal.

Monica: 5:07

Yes, in my first year of practice, I had a woman who told me she literally stood on her head for 15 minutes after intercourse to keep everything in. I'm like, Oh, please don't do that. Like if you, if it feels good and if it's yoga, whatever, that's fine. You don't have to do that. It's okay.

Dr Erica Bove: 5:20

Yeah. You don't have to lay there for any amount of time. I, you know, I always think that's a recipe for urinary tract infection. Of course, my gynecology hat gets going. So, you know, I think there's a lot of myths out there of what you should and shouldn't do. Tick tock has, been wonderful in terms of helpful information, but also there's a lot of you know, sort of fake news on there as well regarding women's bodies. And so I like to sort of speak the truth as much as possible. What do you think about this mind body connection? I know that we talked about it a little bit in terms of stress and the role that that can have. that's a lot of why my coaching practice is to help people with that aspect. What do you think?

Monica: 5:54

Yeah, you know, I think it's interesting. There's not good randomized controlled studies that look at this, but you've probably seen this. I know I have seen this. I have had times where couples, we go through everything that we can and they've tried everything. And I say, you know what? You guys seem really stressed out about this. Let's just take a break from everything. Don't chart. Let's back off on the medications, all of this stuff. And wouldn't, you know, it like within a month or two, they call me, they're like, Hey, we're pregnant now. I'm not advocating that that works for everybody. And I don't want to be cheeky and say like, Oh, we'll just quit. And then you'll get pregnant. I realized that's not everybody's story, but for some couples, it absolutely is. You know, I have absolutely seen that before. And so I think there's this huge connection of, You know, we want to be intentional without creating intensity, and I think that becomes a challenging balance at times, but that's where my job comes in is to say, okay, Doing those things. Where can we offload things, especially from the woman's plate to say, okay, you don't have to do the charting. You don't have to do the medications. Let's stabilize everything so that it's just kind of autopilot and normal for you. Now, during this time, I don't want you to take on any new projects at work. I don't want you to start training for a marathon, you know, any of those pieces where sometimes women feel like if I would just do more, then that will help me to get pregnant. And my job and role is to say, no, no, no, I actually want you to do less. We're going to do specific things, but don't be taking on so much. So, like I said, I don't have a controlled study that shows or proves that, but absolutely have seen that if we can take the intensity off, that makes a huge difference. And sometimes for people, I'll say, Hey, let's take a month off. And then if you want to come back to it, you come back to it. And we do. And sometimes it's just that nice reset that they need to go, okay. Now I've got the resilience to keep on going. I know that you do a lot of this with your coaching work. So I, actually want to hear your answer on this because I think this is huge as far as, how we make a difference going forward.

Dr Erica Bove: 7:49

Yeah. I agree with everything you said. And I love what you said about the intensity, trying to, take the intensity, down. And it's hard because for so many professional, successful people, that intensity is what has led to their success in other areas of life. And that sort of, even self criticism as sort of that, the thing that got them to the next level. And so, What I try to do is I try to introduce self compassion and teach people how to do that. I don't mean like pie in the sky. I mean, truly doing the work of saying like, anybody in my situation would feel this way. How can I treat myself as I, with my best friend, we are often the worst people to ourselves. And a best friend would say, take on fewer projects at work you know, create a little space in your schedule, slow down, feel your feelings, process the things. And that's especially hard. You know, this is going to air in January, probably for both of us. But, you know, as we are recording this, we are deep into holiday season and it seems like there's more on the to do list than ever. And so sometimes intentionally saying, notice some of those things, like maybe not this year, maybe a holiday card does not have to get out this year. Maybe I can buy those cookies instead of laboring over a stove for hours and hours. And so I do think less is more. What I help my clients with. And this is so hard to do. And I think this is where the spiritual base comes in is where I see so many people who are just like clinging to the outcome, understandably, because the stakes are so high. You know, so many of us are biologically wired. We want this more than anything, more than a career, We're like, I am here on this earth to be a mom. And so that attachment to that outcome can sometimes block what's actually meant to happen. Whether it's timing or. The way in which it happens or just our ideas, sort of our egos tend to take over understandably because it's like push, push, push. And that tends to be like a very masculine energy. What I help people with is really obviously hoping, for a positive outcome for working on the mindset that is going to allow that to happen in terms of trusting and peacefulness and, visualizing things happening, but then letting go of the outcome and really understanding like. I trust the overall process. It doesn't have to happen in this cycle, but I trust that the universe, God, whoever has a plan for me to be a mom when it is meant to happen in the way that it's meant to happen. And so in terms of decreasing that intensity, I think it really does take the pressure off of each cycle, each ovulation, each embryo transfer, whatever it is. And there's something that happens in the body where it's almost like the energetic body. And the physical body align so that the highest chance of receptivity actually can happen. And I do wonder, is that what's happening in these cycles where somebody either, you know, I had a patient recently went to Spain and like took a couple months off and lo and behold, she came back. And again, if you're listening to this and you're a family member, do not take this as your permission to tell your daughter in law that she just needs to relax and it'll happen because please, that is one of the most offensive things that a family member can say. I just want to throw that out there. Yes. But I think as professionals, we can encourage people to make room in their lives for these sort of opportunities to really sort of vision it happening, hope for the best, but then release that attachment to the outcome such that there's room for that highest good to come in, in the way in which it's meant to. And I hope that makes sense. It's one of the hardest things that we can do, especially if you know, we like control. We like to be in the driver's seat, but I really do believe that, When a couple adopts and they let go of that sort of attachment and then they find themselves pregnant. Like I do believe that that's what's happening. I just can't bottle it up and put it on prescription pad and say like, and this is what we're doing for you, but I can walk people along the journey so that they can create something similar for themselves.

Monica: 11:32

Yeah. I love that. That's beautiful. What are the things that you do in your coaching sessions that are practical to make that happen? Like it's one thing to say yes, have self compassion and do that, but what does that look like on a practical basis? Yeah.

Dr Erica Bove: 11:44

Absolutely. Okay. So coaching one on one is basically showing people their thoughts and their feelings, like the 95 percent that's running in the subconscious and showing them how those particular thoughts and feelings are leading to their actions and then the results in the world. So if somebody is telling themselves like, this is never going to work, or I'm too old to be a mom or like that sort of subconscious tape, maybe people then feel powerless or they feel overwhelmed. And then their action is that they shut down and they withdraw. And the result is time keeps passing and I do become too old to be a mom. Or, this isn't going to work because none of my energetic body is aligned and I'm truly blocking the process. Again, this is a no judgment, no blame zone, but the good news is we actually have some agency over it where we can actually do something. So mantras. So that's sort of the unintentional model. Then we shift to, okay, so now that we've shed light on what's actually happening, which is empowering, we're like, Again, no judgment. There's a no judgment zone. We're like, how do you actually want to feel about this situation? Such a powerful question. And some people say neutral. I have a hard time with neutral because I don't really know what neutral means. I always try and get a synonym to neutral. I understand the concept. Yes. Maybe this sort of positive space or, not toxic positivity is where people want to go. And maybe it's too much to be genuinely positive, but what I see as sort of what people mean by neutral is trusting, accepting, peaceful, maybe cautiously optimistic, those sorts of things. So if those are the feelings that people want to generate, even though they're undergoing this process that they never would have chosen, the question is, what thoughts do you need to have to then generate those feelings? And so what would you need to think? To feel peaceful about this. What would you need to think to feel trusting about this. And so then when people do that brainstorming, it might be I do trust that everything is going to be okay. I do trust that God has a plan for me and my future as a mom I'm doing my best. I love that one. Like I'm doing everything I can. And I'm doing my best. And so those thoughts then generate those feelings that people want to feel. And then the actions are actually more in line with those. Higher level resonating feelings. if somebody is trusting the process, they're going to go to their doctor's appointments. They're going to reach out to their family members and friends instead of withdrawing, they're going to connect with other people in similar situations. So, you know, all those different actions spring from those higher level feelings. And then the results that happen as a result of that are going to be in line with those actions. So again, our thoughts create our feelings, our feelings create our actions, our actions create our results. So when the brain starts to offer us those negative thoughts, because that is the path of least resistance. That is our programming. We have to use our brains for us and not against us. We have to say, Hey brain, I see what you're trying to do, but I'm not picking that up today. And I have people actually write down those mantras that serve them on a piece of paper. And so even yesterday I was working with a client and she came up with three strong mantras as she approaches this next embryo transfer cycle. And I said, when you start to go down that shame spiral, cause all these negative thoughts, that's where they lead us and shame spiral shuts our bodies down. Truly shuts our actual bodies down. Not just our minds, our bodies. I say, pick up your paper. And actually for me personally, I like to do this on my Google keep app, because I always have my phone with me. Some people even make these the wallpaper of their phones so that these mantras are top of mind. I love that idea because we're always moving our phones in and out of our peripheral vision. Having these mantras and then really saying those mantras, really embodying those mantras. And then those better feelings automatically flow. You have to try it out to believe it, but I promise you it works. And then when people are starting to feel peaceful, they're like, Oh, this is just a part of my journey. Before fertility was taking up like 98 percent of my thoughts and now it's just one part of my life. And I think that that is one very practical way to reduce that intensity. to allow this to work in a better way. So that's an example of how, using self compassion principles and using coaching principles, we can use those tools to shed light on what's actually running through our minds, how our bodies are actually feeling and how that's leading to the results that we don't want. And then even these small, like 1 percent shifts, 2 percent shifts of Heading in a slightly different direction. Not only does it feel better, but it's actually what leads to a better outcome.

Monica: 16:00

I love that you make it sound so simple and easy. So that's

Dr Erica Bove: 16:03

this lifetime of work. But I think, you know, people just need a little bit of a guide because it's really hard to get out of our heads. A lot of this is actually embodiment, you know, yes, this is happening on a conscious level, but we have to sort of really say like, how do I actually want to feel and feel that? And we have to get comfortable with the full range of human emotions. And this is, not easy. This is really The work is saying like, Oh, shame is showing up at my door today. I'm going to invite shame in and acquaint myself with shame. Maybe even befriend shame because shame has something to tell me that this is data. This is useful data. Maybe it comes from the childhood. Maybe it comes from something that's going on in our lives, or maybe a message that we're telling ourselves that makes us feel less than, but until we can befriend the whole range of emotions. It's really to go through the fertility journey because it's ups and downs. It's everything between it's relationship stuff where we have to communicate our needs to another person and our care team and all those things. And so I do this, like feel the feelings thing. Another thing that I help my clients with is three times a day. And I do this myself. So I walk the walk, you know, this sort of how we feel app, which is also free. You download it and you can say how many times a day it prompts you to actually ask yourself, how do I feel? so many of us are just like these robots running around, checking off the list, doing the things that is not a good space for fertility. It just is not, we have to make a room for a little soul to come in. We have to make room to elevate our consciousness. We have to, you know, think about the fact that we're trying to become parents in a way that builds a better legacy, than maybe one from, prior generations. And so this is what I think in terms of Befriending our emotions, bringing awareness to our emotions, feeling how that feels inside the body. we don't get pregnant in our minds, we get pregnant in our bodies. And so we have to make sure that we're aligned, that we're telling ourselves good messages, but also that our bodies are feeling aligned, powerful, like the powerful beings that we are to be able to allow this to happen.

Monica: 18:00

Oh, I love that. I love that. Okay. Well, if I needed to have babies, I would absolutely be talking to you because the mindset work is so important. So challenging. But I love how you said it's, it's one thing to say it, but to try and do it for yourself is just a totally different ball of wax. So absolutely. Well,

Dr Erica Bove: 18:17

what I will say, you know, Dr. Minger is that This does not just apply to the fertility journey. I say, spoiler alert to my patients and my clients. This is not the last hard thing that's going to happen. And so what we're doing, what we're doing in this work is we're really up leveling relationships. We're up leveling evolution. We're, bringing relationships with ourselves and other people to a higher level. And so really my goal in this, like, You know, when people get pregnant, which is wonderful, and I'm sure you've seen this too, especially after your infertility, you'd think it would be a happy event, but sometimes that's the scariest part is like, Oh crap. Now what, what if I have a miscarriage? What if something else happens? What if I'm not going to be a good parent? And so it's really like how to calm the nervous system, how to calm the mind. And I'm sure in your life right now, you have big goals and things that you're trying to accomplish where you're like, okay, how am I going to do this? it's that same process. Of understanding what our unconscious, maybe negative tape is, how we can sort of challenge that, ask ourselves if it's true, get into our bodies, how do we want to feel and empower it? I That's one of my three pillars is how can we. Empower ourselves to bring about what we actually want to create in a way that brings about the highest good and a lot of it is less is more and a lot of it is actually getting out of our own way.

Monica: 19:30

and it goes back to both of our common goals is how can we restore that baseline health right whether that's your physical health your mental health because again we're not looking for just. It's the quick fix of like, Oh, boom, get the positive pregnancy test. And both of us say, see you later. You know, both of us in our worlds are saying we want to empower you to make change in your life that is lasting, that impacts not only just your pregnancy, but your family and your relationships and everything beyond that. So love that.

Dr Erica Bove: 19:56

It's so beautiful. Is there anything else that you would like to impart before we end this conversation today?

Monica: 20:03

I think we've covered just about everything that I wanted to make sure people knew about natural fertility. And, you know, I think part of it too, is that we want to make sure, I think for both of our sets of listeners to understand that This can be a very long journey for some people and having the support that you need from people who know what they're doing, who have been there, who get it, who are looking at things from a standpoint of we're looking at this mind body connection, we're looking at solving root cause problems is very different than I think what a lot of women have experienced if they've gone to other conventional providers in the past, you know, maybe they feel like you've been shuffled through a system or you feel like just a number or a cog in the wheel where they're like, Yep, here you go. Here's your prescriptions. You're like, Wait, that's the same thing you gave the last four people. I think that's one of the things that both Dr. Bob and I share in common is that we want to look at your unique situation. We really bring that mind body connection, the root cause healing to this situation. And, and really, I love it. The fact that we're able to connect over that because it's not super common, especially in the fertility world. A lot of people are looking for that quick fix. They don't get the answers and they just get really discouraged. So just wanting to bring a message of hope that there is a better way forward, that there are other options out there that can help you on your journey, no matter where that leads.

Dr Erica Bove: 21:23

Yeah. I echo that so much. And thank you for bringing that up. I think that now at the end of the day, you know, I was taught in medical school, you're going to learn most of what you need to learn about, the patient and what to do by listening. yes, the tests are important. Yes. All those things are helpful. But when I truly listen to a patient or a client, as you do, there's also this intuition that happens to like, We see the patient, we hear the patient. And so many people who come to me say you're the first person who's actually listened to me. You're the first person who's actually understood. You're the first person that's in cover that I have a history of trauma from all these years that I've really never dealt with. Like there are so many things. And that's where that it matters that we have time. We have the time. Yes. And it matters that we have the care and the passion to help. And it, matters that we're able to see you and hear you and understand you. That tailored approach I think is what's missing in most of current medicine. And I think until we can bring that to the fertility space. People are going to feel like just a number. And Hey, if you hit the lottery and the probabilities work for you, then fantastic. But if not, you know, you sort of move on. It's not like that everywhere, but I think there is a better way. There is a message of hope that we both care deeply and want to help. So if what you heard today resonates with your journey, with your story, and you're like, I think that's, what's been missing, Please do seek us out, obviously for slightly different purposes, but let's be very clear about where the listeners can find us because, I'm sure that there's many people in my world who have not yet heard of you, Dr. Minjeur, and, you know, similarly, so what's the best place for people to find you and benefit from all that you have to offer?

Monica: 22:53

Yeah, so our website has basically everything you need to know about us. So radiant clinic dot com is our website. One of the things we have on there is we do have the option to book a free discovery call with me. So if you're on the fence, if you're like, I don't know if this is right for me, talk me through it. You can schedule a call directly with me that I'm happy to kind of talk through your situation, get you moving in the right direction. On the website, there's also a link to our podcast, but we do also have a podcast. It's called cycle wisdom. I typically keep. pretty short episodes, but you can kind of spiral through those and say, okay, what applies to me? And again, we talk about specifics when it comes to fertility. So if you're dealing with PCOS and have infertility, there's episodes specifically about that. So you can just scroll through whatever topic is specifically applies to you. We're also on social media, but again, you can access all of that through our website. So website's probably the easiest way to find us.

Dr Erica Bove: 23:41

I'm going to start when I wear my doctor hat, I'm going to send people to your podcast now because, you know, I knew it was a resource, but I didn't quite understand the depth of it and how applicable it could be to my patients. And so thank you for that. That is a gift. To both me and to all my patients, the best place to find me when I'm wearing my coaching hat is love and science fertility. com it's my website. And then from there, I have the podcast love and science fertility. I have pages on social Facebook and Instagram. But really my website has the most comprehensive information. Similarly, you, you can book a discovery call with me. See if working together would be a good fit in the coaching space. I mean, Hey, if you're in Vermont or New York or somewhere thereabouts, New Hampshire, and you're like, Hey, I think I need a fertility doctor. I'm happy to see you at the university of Vermont. But, coaching is really my zone of genius where I feel like I really can make the biggest impact in ways that other people are not. in that space. And so yes, listen, follow book a call if that sounds good. And I think working together, we can really bring about the best possible outcomes.

Monica: 24:42

Absolutely. Thanks so much for chatting with me today. This has been really fun. I'm glad we finally made this happen.

Dr Erica Bove: 24:47

Yes, absolutely. And so thank you listeners as always. We love you until the next time. Bye.

Monica: 24:55

Thank you so much for tuning into this episode today with Dr. Erika Bove. You can find details on how to reach out to Dr. Bove directly in our show notes. If you're ready to work with our elite team of healthcare professionals for charting instruction and medical evaluation, go to our website, radiantclinic. com, to schedule a free discovery call with me and learn more about our package based pricing for comprehensive care. We are currently able to see people for in person appointments in the Cedar Rapids, Iowa area, or telehealth visit if you live in the states of Iowa, Illinois, Illinois, Illinois, Illinois, Illinois, Illinois. Minnesota, and more states coming soon. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Please share this podcast with someone in your life who would benefit from our services. Remember to subscribe to this podcast for more empowering content that I look forward to sharing with you on our next episode of Cycle Wisdom.